Immunisation

You know, a lot of them will say, 'There are no side effects'. Well, there are side effects, those are actually noted by the pharmaceutical companies who manufacture these vaccines. So you can't say the vaccines have no side effects. There are risks with everything and you have to weigh up, 'Are you happy that the risk of that vaccination and the possible side effects were better for your child than the risk of maybe not having the vaccination and catching that disease naturally'. And that's ultimately what you have to weigh up and I don't think the government really give that view. I think they've just been very black and white about it.
 

I know that they can be life-threatening. So that's why I think, you know, it is important for me as a mother to protect my baby if I can, as much as I can. Because I know some mothers, I've heard from my friend and family that they do complain that the babies cry, you know, they've got probably a rash or something, I don't know. But you just have to weigh the situation as I said. It's what's more important.

Because I don't really think, me personally, I don't really think a vaccination is linked to autism really. Because it's usually, you really notice it after a year. So I think parents get a bit confused that they think, because MMR is given at that same age as well, so they just link it with that vaccination. But, because with my friend, she had a brother that had autism. And he was born premature and he's got autism. But it's not because of the MMR, it's just something that you're born with. But you don't actually, I mean you don't really notice the autism until they're 1 years old, because that's when they walk and they talk, isn't it? They, that's when you actually notice all these things. So I think, I wouldn't really link MMR with autism because I don't, and there's no, really any studies to say that it is linked to that or the side-effects to that. I don't think it is.
 

I was also aware, and my husband too, of the controversy raised here about the MMR. I always thought, sorry to say so, that that was rubbish. And I think later on that was confirmed. Now the evidence shows that that study reporting MMR association with autism and IBD is completely wrong. Even if it was so, the incidence of autism and inflammatory bowel disease in children who have been vaccinated with MMR was far, far lower than the consequences, the, the possible consequences of.... for not having received the immunisation and having had the infection. Measles is one of the most immunosuppressive viruses around and when a child gets measles his whole immune system is affected. So they can get any infection. In my country they often die of bronchopneumonia. And it's just terribly sad to see a child die because he wasn't given the immunisation in time. So you can have much worse consequences for not having the vaccine than for having it. 

Autism is a very rare occurrence. Probably we are seeing a bit more of it because now we are diagnosing it more. It was completely unknown thirty years ago. Nowadays there are more criteria and more knowledge so we are diagnosing it more. It's not that it's just out there increasing now. It is just that we are now seeing it. The same happened with the cancer. Before, people said, 'Oh, no, nobody died of cancer fifty years ago'. It's just that we didn't diagnose it. People still died of it. But people said, 'Oh, they just died of something'. And, and it's the same with autism and, and inflammatory bowel disease. They happened coincidentally to start being diagnosed about the same time as MMR was starting to be applied, and also they tend to be diagnosed at about the age when the MMR is administered. So it's coincidental. But there is absolutely no evidence, and there have been lots of studies done with a lot of children that proved that there is no connection. It's just totally coincidental.
 

Again I think because I'm in research I always treat media representation of health results with quite large scepticism [laughs]. So the media like to get hold of this idea, this difference between absolute risk and relative risk they deliberately play on that. It was like when the pill scare came out and they said, you know, that the risk of thrombo-embolism was, the relative risk was, I don't know what it was, it was about twice or something if, it, on this pill rather than that pill, but they didn't say that the absolute risk was still tiny and actually still smaller than it would be if you were pregnant. And what happened was that all these women got pregnant as a result. So that whole representation of risk they deliberately play about with that.

And I always find whenever you read anything that you know anything vaguely about in the papers you always realise how many sort of [laughs] how biased it is or that it's coming from a certain angle and certain things aren't ' So I'm not so swayed by stuff in the media. 

I think I'm quite lucky at having access to research papers and if I read something in a  much more I don't know, reliable, if that's fair, source, then I would be more worried. But even then studies are funded but that's what swung it for me about the MMR was that this guy had  a serious conflict of interest. You know, he was representing the parents of children with autism and you can see how it happens. Somebody stakes their career on making a certain point and they get a certain reputation and they can't really back down. So, I think knowing that, knowing that background, that piece of information in itself was enough for me to really dismiss, I think [laughs]. Although I mean it's funny because you have a rational head and then you have your sort of mother head on and so it's not that I got him immunised and didn't worry about it. It was still, I was still looking for signs of [laughs] withdrawing from the world and not wanting affection enough to... which is ridiculous, I knew it was ridiculous but you still sort of do that, you still kind of watch afterwards to see if he's changed. But there was absolutely no sign of that.
 

I discovered through reading up on, on this issue that if you choose to have a single immunisation programme you have to have six separate jabs instead of the two that you have for the MMR. And obviously if the time in-between having the jabs, these six jabs, your child isn't protected. So it's, it's again heightening the risk of catching one of these diseases and of your child maybe passing the disease on to a pregnant mother, whatever in the case of rubella. 

The fact that MMR is done so worldwide, used so worldwide I think over a hundred countries have used it since it was introduced in '88 I believe, suggests that if there really was such a massive problem they would have pulled it off straight away, the Government would have taken it off the shelf straight away because I can't, you know, I can't believe that they would put, you know, the nation's children at risk that seriously. I think that if I had read different, a number of different reports suggesting that the evidence they'd come up with was, was very clearly, you know, in favour of getting rid of the MMR I would have thought again. But because it was just this one gentleman's report and the fact that I believe I read as well that after the Lancet published the report they suggested that he had conflict of interest because he was at the same time looking into the whatever it was the MMR vaccine influence on these, some children that were autistic. It, it does make you think, 'Mmm maybe, I don't, I don't think I'm going to pay too much attention to it. I think that the thousands, well, millions of children that are immunised against it that are actually okay.' I think it's the way forward for me and my baby basically. That was how I reached the decision for us.

And I eventually found places that, that, that could do, it but again it's finding information about those people and if they're, what the service is like. Hence why I saw Harley Street, thinking, 'Well, okay, you can have really shoddy doctors on Harley Street but, hey, on the whole they're going to be okay'. As opposed to someone suggesting, another website suggesting East Finchley, thinking, 'Well, Harley Street is a street of doctors. I think I'd better go there' [laugh]. So this, it is difficult.

It's difficult to know who to trust.

Who to trust. There's no kind of information of, of recommendations of who to go to. It really, it's really difficult.
 

Mother' And actually I don't have a fear of, you know, every year since our son has been born there has been, 'There's going to be a major measles epidemic'. Well, in reality I think there's measles epidemics every three, two to three years anyway, and obviously, you know, it depends on the seriousness of that. But the kind of scaremongering that goes on just actually really frustrates, makes me more cross and, and more determined in some ways that parents should have more information. Because it does feel like scaremongering every year when they say there's going to be a, an epidemic. And, yes, we have a risk that both our son and daughter could catch natural measles. But actually I feel far more comfortable with that and dealing with that than, than actually vaccinating them against it.

Why is that? Why do you feel comfortable with the measles?

Father' Because I think partly, I had measles as a child and it I think it was far more common then. But now the media has portrayed it as a deadly killer disease, which, okay, it can be, there can be complications that cause horrific problems for children, but it's a childhood disease that, it's not like smallpox. It was something that used to exist and it's been a nicety that people are vaccinated and it's helped obviously with some children who have the complications. But it's always portrayed now as a deadly killer, which I'm not sure is the whole truth.

And I, and I think part of it is, when I was a child everyone got mumps, you know. You, it was, I certainly had it. And all I remember is my father keeping out of the way, you know, when I had it. And it was just something all the kids had.

Mother' And I think there is, there is an element that it, again we believe that having some of these illnesses actually builds the immune system, which protects against other illnesses as you get older. The, you know, the immune system needs to be challenged. You know, it's the same theory about you mustn't have your house too clean and, you know, people who have animals for example, dogs, cats, you know, children seem to have fewer allergies because they, you know, they are exposed to some of these things. And I kind of feel the same way about, about some of these illnesses, you know. Having chickenpox is, is fine. It's a, an illness and children's bodies need to develop and go through these things to actually build their immune system against perhaps more serious illnesses as they get older.

Father' It's why their immune systems are there.
 

It's very hard and, and some days I do still worry, you know, it still crosses my mind and I, and I hope that I've made the right decision. But certainly some of the literature that I'd read seemed to, be quite dismissive of the fact that the immunisations actually give sufficient cover for a child anyway, and in fact in some circumstances there have been outbreaks of some of the diseases even where there's been a very high take-up of the immunisation. And that actually went quite a long way to me making my decision because I felt that I wasn't happy with the children having the injections if there really wasn't going to be any cover provided anyway. And no one could really categorically tell me that, that it would actually help them and, and keep them safe from the problems. 

So weighing up the risk, that was quite a big factor in the fact, you know, understanding that perhaps they weren't going to be covered anyway and, and perhaps only minimally. I also spoke to as many people as possible. And my mother was quite a good source because I have elder brothers and sisters and the immunisations weren't available when they were children, and she nursed them both through measles and mumps. And she felt that whilst it was distressing in some ways and they were very poorly, you know, she managed, she managed to keep it under control and she was able to nurse them through. And I felt confident that I give my children a good diet, we eat organic food when we can and we have lots of fresh air. And also we use homeopathic remedies and I felt confident that my homeopath would be able to help us prevent and perhaps nurse through any of these illnesses should they arise. So that's how I assessed the risk in the end.
 

And it's not something, it's not a decision I've made lightly. I haven't sat here and gone, 'Oh, that's it. I'm not having any more'. I have thought it over and thought it over and discussed it with my husband and we've talked and talked and talked and talked. And what do you do? You're just so afraid for your child. That when you're not dealing with, any of the individual illnesses on a day-to-day basis, so really and truly they don't really kind of come into your mind. You're just thinking about what you are dealing with. And when it's not like 'Well, everybody has got polio or everybody has got that and they're really going to catch it' you don't, it's not logical I know on one side of the coin, but the other side of the coin in my head it is. I don't see those illnesses so I'm not having to deal with that. I'm seeing the consequences of the effect of an vaccination, and I see that every day. You know, when you wake up in the morning the full effect of what's happened is there. And when you go to bed at night the full effect is there. And then when he wakes up three, four and five times a night screaming his heart out you, there's no escaping the problems that, you know, have arisen from doing what is deemed as best. So it's, it's really difficult. It's not, I wouldn't wish my worst enemy to be in the position that I have to be in when, when it comes to the children being, having their jabs. It's, it's hard, it really is hard.