Researchers' experiences of patient & public involvement
Embedding patient and public involvement in research
Most researchers we talked to agreed that patient and public involvement has become much more established as a way of working over the last few years, but that there is still some way to go before it becomes truly embedded in research culture. People’s perceptions varied about how well rooted it is currently and at what level. Some argued that in their local team it was just ‘the way we do things here’, but the wider department or university might still not be fully on board. Through the interviews a picture emerged of a somewhat piecemeal approach to involvement. Some had found a very different culture when they moved job from one organisation to another, even within the same university. It was also pointed out that the expectation of involvement is better established within the NIHR (National Institute for Health Research) than some other funders – and even within NIHR there seemed to be varying degrees of interest from the different funding streams.
At the NIHR INVOLVE conference everyone is keen on involvement. Hayley feels she should promote it to those not already on board and explain how to embed it culturally.
At the NIHR INVOLVE conference everyone is keen on involvement. Hayley feels she should promote it to those not already on board and explain how to embed it culturally.
So I think, thinking about the benefits and the costs I think one of the things we should be trying to do, as those people who are into involvement or involvement co-ordinators, is promoting it to other people outside of the people who already are on-board with us – stop talking to the people who are already converted and try and get it out there a little bit more. But I feel it's that group of researchers who don’t see the benefits and think there's too much costs to warrant the benefits. So yeah I think maybe a bit more of a focus either nationally or we need to think more about how we get it so it's just part of people's practice. Because I think there's a; the majority I would say of researchers, are not doing involvement so.
But interesting that the National Institute for Health Research have put out a consultation and it is closed now but it was called Breaking Boundaries I think. And they asked people to write in about what has been positives about their groups and, again we found that we wanted to put in something a little bit different to maybe what they were asking and I don’t know how this is going to fall into; how they’ll take on our feedback and think OK. Because what we talked a lot about was not about – and maybe people expected us to write a lot about the young people's group and say, "These are the benefits for the young people and these are the benefits for the researchers." Instead we focused very much on how we've set up culturally within the Centre and how we've looked at, not just the individual level needs of the young people and the researchers etc., but also what do we need to do at a research centre level to make sure people are doing public involvement.
So again it's about setting up those meetings those research ideas meetings – I'm on those meetings. There's also an expectation that all the bids which kind of go in that public involvement is featured in them. Either, or both – you’ve done public involvement in your bid development and how you're going to do in the future – or if there maybe was any public involvement how you're going to do it in the future. And we're trying to get a system where all those bids will go to our research centre manager and they will check that there is public involvement costs in there. If there's no costs in there it'll be, "Have you spoken to Hayley, because really we should be putting public involvement in here?" And that is kind of a way of us saying, "Right in the first instance when people have research ideas, we're going to try and get them through this group."
NIHR and INVOLVE have played a major role in supporting PPI, but it features more in some funding streams than others. Suzanne argues that we need a more joined up approach.
NIHR and INVOLVE have played a major role in supporting PPI, but it features more in some funding streams than others. Suzanne argues that we need a more joined up approach.
But I do think there's still quite a lot of work to be done and I think it's sort of, again it's this issue of there being pockets of, you know, I don’t want to say go back, so pockets of activity, but not, nothing kind of joined up at the moment and I think that’s a real issue and I think it's trying to join up that activity. Maybe that’s something, you know, they could do a bit more of but also, you know, you know there's obviously stuff, you know NIHR obviously, you know, very behind all of this – I think that’s a real positive but I'm sure there's probably more that they could do as well. And actually making it more of a priority I guess because there's only certain funding streams where it seems to be more highlighted than others, like Research for Patient Benefit and I think the other one, used to be SDO [Service Delivery and Organisation], it's something else now, Health Services Delivery [Health Services and Delivery Research] and something, anyway. But the, where it's an issue where some of the others like HTA [Health Technology Assessment] and, you know, because I can see a huge, there's a huge area around patient involvement in clinical trials and I'm not entirely sure that’s been focused on as much as it could have been you know.
Even in a generally positive culture, there will be varying levels of awareness of and commitment to involvement.
Even in a generally positive culture, there will be varying levels of awareness of and commitment to involvement.
The backing and support of David’s local Biomedical Research Centre helps keep involvement high on the agenda and makes it more likely to succeed.
The backing and support of David’s local Biomedical Research Centre helps keep involvement high on the agenda and makes it more likely to succeed.
Well it has relatively been – for me, with being you know a trialist and running a clinical trial's unit, not so bad because it's actually a vital component of it. Time wise – no not necessarily. Getting people together and all the right time is very difficult. We also have a policy where you have to have PPI for certain, trials steering committee for instance, and if you don’t have representation there that committee can go ahead. Because you know the patients have, you know got time themselves, they can't give up reams of time or to come and service your needs. In the main I would say probably yes. Things like the BRC have been very helpful though. When you get a ground swell of support for these things - it's funny how things get support and things don’t. It could have been something very different [subject] in genetics, coding or something like that. But at the moment PPI's considered to be very important, correctly in my opinion, but not in everybody's opinion. And it's got a lot of backing and support behind it and things like the biomedical research centre unit, of which we are here, puts funds into that and makes sure it stays quite high on the agenda. When that happens in an academic institution like this, and linked to the hospital, then you’ve probably got more likelihood of it being successful, and it not impeding your day to day work as much as it might do.
Alison says she still has to constantly remind herself about involvement. It’s high on funders’ agenda but she is not always sure it’s as valuable as everyone says.
Alison says she still has to constantly remind herself about involvement. It’s high on funders’ agenda but she is not always sure it’s as valuable as everyone says.
Yes, but I don’t really think of it in those terms. Because you, it's become essential now so you can't really think of it as getting in the way of doing other stuff because it has got to be integral yeah.
And is it easy for it be integral?
Not really no, no. It's still a, I still have to sort of constantly remind myself, 'Oh yeah I need to do that; I need to think about that.' And yet for all the reasons we're talking about before about the mechanics of identifying people and having appropriate structure and all the rest of it, there's a lot of thought needs to go into that and that sort of flexibility and responsiveness and all the rest of it yeah. And I think sometimes we sort of try to take what appears to be the easy routes so, you know, sometimes you're seeing examples where people sort of say, "Oh yeah we're doing user involvement." Actually it's not user involvement it's involvement of a professional who works with users, you know someone speaking on their behalf which is quite a different thing. Or it's a one way communication. You know you tell them what's going on but actually there's no scope for anything to come back. So all those things take effort to make sure you're not caught into those traps.
…And so all the PPI that you have done so far, is it something you feel confident about embedding in your research and thinking about those sort of soft skills and the people skills?
Yeah I guess so. I feel fairly confident in being able to carry on doing the kind of things we've done up to now. But not necessarily confident that we're doing the most effective or productive thing that we could be doing I guess. And I think some of that questioning is not, it's simply because there is no ideal model, there is no perfect answer and actually the whole thing is a compromise and fundamentally limited. And that I think at the moment because there's such, it's so high on the agenda, funders and all sorts of people I think there is a touch of Emperor's new clothes going on, that this is so valuable, important and useful, [inaudible]. Well that’s one good thing to do but it's not, in reality is not actually that valuable, important and useful – that is quite heavy as well. But I think it's definitely a sort of tacit consensus that it's all absolutely great and people don’t really question it now.
We have made great strides with involvement but the case is still being made. There is a role for NIHR to bring greater coordination, leadership and sharing of expertise.
We have made great strides with involvement but the case is still being made. There is a role for NIHR to bring greater coordination, leadership and sharing of expertise.
…The other thing is leadership in all this – who's leading PPI in England? There's loads and loads of amazing talented people that work in this area. There's lots of academics that are committed to it; there's lots of people that are lived experience experts; there's PPI experts. I heard recently that the NIHR, through their Breaking Boundaries review, you know are running some events where they're bringing everybody together that does PPI within NIHR – lots of them, lots and lots and lots. There's loads of expertise out there. So how do we harness all that expertise and have some leadership, have real key leadership and networking around it? Because at the moment there aren't natural networks that you can join to share your expertise and talk to other people in the field and say, "Oh we're doing this over here in mental health; what's happening in diabetes?" I don’t know. I mean I run a charity that’s like to supposedly trying to be an expert in this and I don’t know what's happening in lots of other fields and that’s a challenge for me, I need to find out.
But there aren't natural networks that you join and I think that something could be done because it feels that if we're saying that PPI is really vital to research, it's a specialism and specialisms need leadership and they need training and they need support and they can't grow without that. It's all, it's here, there, it's all bits and bobs and its people doing it in their evenings. It's become to a; it's a level now where it's more than that.
Academics are judged by their grants and publications, not by their involvement work. NIHR INVOLVE is trying to change the culture but they can’t do it all.
Academics are judged by their grants and publications, not by their involvement work. NIHR INVOLVE is trying to change the culture but they can’t do it all.
If there is no way in which PPI is valued in any of those then people won't respond in a positive way or do it or even consider that there might be something in it because they're not, that work is not acknowledged. People who do PPI tend to be working, you know, in their own time – they're doing things independently creative. PPI is expensive so that’s why often the costs are sort of pushed down to keep the research costs and total down. You know, there are so many barriers and it's a surprise that people do it anyway because it isn’t valued usually by their institution. There is no way it can be celebrated. You know I haven’t come across any awards that are being given for, for good PPI practice. INVOLVE is working very hard but they can't do it all. You know they're doing a fantastic job but their remit is so huge and it can't be the NIHR who does it all, you know. It needs to be something that's celebrated much more widely and acknowledged and recognised much more widely than it currently is.
I don’t think you can say anything to one individual to make them change their mind. You know, it's got to be in the water, it's got to be in the discourse and that will make people think, “Oh hang on I used that about PPI, but you know maybe there's something in it.” And you know, I have spoken to lots of people who have said to me, "Oh I've always been a real sceptic and then such and such happened," or, "I read this, such and such," or, "I heard you speak about something," and, and that’s what just starts people thinking, “Oh maybe there is something, there is a value here that I hadn’t previously recognised.” And people who, and often people have to demonstrate, you know, some PPI involvement, and they will opt for something tokenistic and it's, if you get the chance at that point to say, "Oh I see you're doing such and such, I wonder had you considered?" And then if somebody is receptive they might say, "Oh yeah," or member of their team, you know, you might just, you might just stimulate their thinking and their creativity. But, you know, there is no magic bullet where you can turn a sceptic into somebody who fully embraces PPI in their work.
The combination of NIHR pressure and younger researchers coming through is changing attitudes, but involvement should feature in formal assessments of research excellence.
The combination of NIHR pressure and younger researchers coming through is changing attitudes, but involvement should feature in formal assessments of research excellence.
Jim feels we need to pay more attention to different levels of organisational change. Peer persuasion is important (though researchers who are too passionate can put others off).
Jim feels we need to pay more attention to different levels of organisational change. Peer persuasion is important (though researchers who are too passionate can put others off).
And clinical audit is quite an interesting example. Because I remember, when I started at the Regional Health Authority in 1992, clinical audit was just coming in at the same time that NHS consumers in research had just started and the concept of involving patients and the public came in. Twenty two years on, patient and public involvement is not normal practice but clinical audit is and was ten years ago. In fact, it probably only took five years to embed and part of the reason for that, despite initial vehement, professional resistance to it, was peer to peer pressure and continuous rounds of audit led to, you know those who were resistant to change being isolated and challenged by their peers who eventually changed their minds and they did it. So there was a top down dictat but ultimately it was the peer to peer pressure and influence that brought about the change. But it had that bottom up, top down mixture which we've not had in public involvement.
Stuart says the NIHR has done ‘a fabulous job’ in promoting involvement. Emphasis on ‘impact’ in assessing research excellence has also helped universities prioritise it.
Stuart says the NIHR has done ‘a fabulous job’ in promoting involvement. Emphasis on ‘impact’ in assessing research excellence has also helped universities prioritise it.
And they are the big funders, you know, they spend a billion pounds a year on medical research. And provided they carry on the system level saying you will do this, great people will do it. at the same time I think partly through advocacy from people like Sally Davies and Russell Hamilton they’ve been I think very influential in setting the research excellence framework around impact and if that continues and if the Universities and other organisations see this as being a way of scoring brownie points they’ll carry on doing it. So it’s very important that we set up a system so that the organisations can do this but at the same time we also have to convince the individual researchers.
Sarah A reflects on two possible futures for PPI. It may become a normal part of practice, or it may fall by the wayside if people think it doesn’t work.
Sarah A reflects on two possible futures for PPI. It may become a normal part of practice, or it may fall by the wayside if people think it doesn’t work.
And that partly I think is why we do need to start measuring things and sharing outputs and stuff and just start making sure it gets seen before it just kind of crumbles away and becomes something you don’t bother doing anymore.
…I suppose what I'm hoping will happen I think if, I think if it can be methodologically developed more in terms of what you measure, how you measure, how you report it, how it contributes to the sort of wider issues in terms of getting stuff implemented and doing work that is of importance and things. Then I think perhaps people will start taking it more seriously as a research activity almost, or as an activity that feeds research and that is important to the research world and to us as researchers and I hope then it would be sustained because it would have sort of legitimacy and maybe then there could be people who, you know, the way you specialise in qualitative research and mental health and PPI and it becomes something that is, you know, part of your repertoire but acknowledging that it is a complicated issue, it's not just something you give to the youngest member of the team, you, there are specialists in it . Yeah I suppose that, that probably sounds really selfish because it really sounds like I'm saying, "I'd quite like it if I can go into a role as PPI specialist."
But even I think yeah, I think if it got more, if it had that legitimacy of being seen as a serious research endeavour then I think people would throw more money at it; I think PIs would care more about it and I think hopefully that would cycle that by taking it more seriously it's able to show more serious outcomes and it's able to demonstrate influence or value in some way, whether that’s an intrinsic value or in terms of measureable outputs and I would hope then that it would become - At the moment I think it's a self-defeating cycle that people don’t do it properly, they don’t report it and then when you ask people about it they go, "Well it's rubbish isn’t it?" and it's kind of, “Well of course it was rubbish, you set it up to fail essentially” and so it's this thing of giving it a fair crack of the whip I think to do it properly and in a sound way and a transparent way to let it happen and see if it can make an contribution and then, you know, then if it is absolute rubbish then you know. And that’s one take on it but at the moment I think the future of it I hope would just be that people start taking it seriously and so we start looking at it, genuinely looking at it as part of research and what it contributes yeah [laughs]. It's a tough question.
PPI is still a ‘sub-culture’. To survive it needs to demonstrate impact and be seen as part of research excellence. Alice hopes it is here to stay but the future is uncertain.
PPI is still a ‘sub-culture’. To survive it needs to demonstrate impact and be seen as part of research excellence. Alice hopes it is here to stay but the future is uncertain.
…What do you think the future is for PPI?
I think that getting the impact thing figured out is going to be kind of a decider because lots of things like to be decided on what the impact is or what the outcome is. People like things that they can measure so they can quantify what they're going to – it all comes down to resources I sometimes think and splitting up those resources fairly, and having something that you can't measure makes that difficult for economists really. So I think that’s going to continue to be a tricky thing. I think it's going to become more important – you know, like with REF it's become a much bigger percentage than it was previously. No sorry it's not PPI, its REF that’s become bigger – that PPI is tied in with that, I think all of that is going to become bigger. I would like to think that more kind of user groups will be set up using core funding because I think that’s quite a handy way of doing it because in many cases you have a grant application which you will hope will get you some money to do something and you need to, if you want to involve people in the most meaningful way, I think you need to do it as early as possible.
But to do that you need the money and to get the money you need to have the grant, so it's very hard to find – there isn’t, there doesn’t seem to be a kind of established fund or, you know, I know of small funds here and there like the University has I think all the catalyst fund which is awards a small amount of money to people to pursue their PPI activities. But I'd like to think there would be a kind of bigger, maybe national thing where people could apply for a really small amount of money when they're just getting things going so that it could be most meaningful. But again, I don’t think that would happen unless you could prove that it was effective because otherwise you could just be wasting money on something that isn’t having an impact. So I think the future is uncertain [laughs] but it's not going to go away, it's only going to get better yeah. I think it’s going stay now it's here. I don’t think there’ll be a time when people go, "I don’t think we need to bother with that PPI anymore." I hope not anyway.
Tom sees a future where research is fully led by patients - and they have to remember to involve clinicians.
Tom sees a future where research is fully led by patients - and they have to remember to involve clinicians.
Fiona thinks researchers are embracing involvement and it’s just part of what she does. But we’ll know it’s embedded when we stop talking about it, and research ideas come from patients.
Fiona thinks researchers are embracing involvement and it’s just part of what she does. But we’ll know it’s embedded when we stop talking about it, and research ideas come from patients.
…I mean I just, it's so part of what I do now. With hindsight I would love to have had a far more formal involvement of PPI early on, but that hindsight's wonderful, and it just didn't formally exist back then, I mean we're talking twenty years ago. I would love to have far more involved but it's difficult to get people involved because it means them giving up their time and they've got other things going on in their lives as well and it's appreciating that. And I suppose I'd like to make sure that those that are involved know just how much they are appreciated but it's how you do that in a nice way. But I don't regret anything I've done, I just wish I'd done it earlier.
What's the future of PPI?
Well, we need to be moving on from conversations like this - It should just be a given, and at the time that we stop talking about ‘it needs to be embedded’ and all this sort of thing, then I think we'll be there. In fact what we really need to see I think as well is that the research coming from PPI is what we do; that the ideas aren't coming from us and we're asking whether this is OK – there needs to be a switch round. The two have to come together and I don't actually think one is more important than the other. Researchers have some very, very good ideas and that needs to happen, because there's some very, very clever people who come up with a complete spin on thing, and that really is important to go forward. But, at the same time, the patients themselves need to be saying, you know, this is important and the research needs to equally come from that side. It needs to be a partnership.
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