Interview 31

Age at interview: 30

Brief Outline: First month of breastfeeding was the hardest thing she has done in her life. Very sore and cracked nipples. Fussy babies at 4-5 months, early weaning with first baby.

Background: At the time of interview, this 30 year old, Indian woman was breastfeeding her 15 week old son. She also had an 18 month old son whom she had breastfed. A pharmacist, she was married to an analyst programmer (IT).

More about me...

A pharmacist by profession, this woman said that being a pharmacist 'went out of the window, it didn't mean anything' when she had her first baby, meaning that all her training had not prepared her for parenting and breastfeeding. She remembers being told that breastfeeding is the best way to feed a baby but had more instruction in bottle feeding in the form of a whole training package on formula milks. She says that the suggestion to introduce a bottle of expressed milk to the baby so that the father can experience feeding came from a special antenatal breastfeeding class, run by the local hospital but sponsored by a breast pump manufacturer. She found pumping and cleaning the equipment 'a real faff' and said that she had probably only gone out and left the baby about twice as there aren't many places that she and her husband go where they can't take the baby with them. She lives in an extended family situation with her parents-in-law and enjoys the support of family members. After the birth of each of her babies her mother and mother-in-law got together to prepare a special 'nut mixture' (supposed to be good to balance the body after childbirth and promote the milk supply) which formed her whole diet for the first five days and the basis for at least the next couple of months. She does not breastfeed in front of the male members of the family. She or they go to another room. Her main responsibility is to care for the children which she finds quite demanding given their closeness in age. In spite of finding the first month of breastfeeding 'probably the hardest thing' that she has ever done, she says that it is also the most enjoyable thing that she has done with her babies.

She listened to all of the advice and then did what suited her and her baby. Sometimes she woke...

In the end I ended up doing what I wanted to do mix match of everything that everybody had told me and then just getting on with it because nothing seemed to be working so I couldn't get any worse well I didn't think I could get any worse and things did seem to be getting better after ten days so I just carried doing what I was doing and lying down when breastfeeding and it worked in the end. Not my best of memories.

What was happening to the baby's weight at this stage?

The baby was putting weight on fine, very well he was a good weight to start off with anyway he was his weight was very well.

So he was getting the milk obviously?

Yes, yeah.

It just wasn't suiting you the way he was getting it?

No, he I mean for a breastfed baby he was doing very well he was feeding every four hours he'd sleep for four hours and at six weeks he was sleeping through so as a breastfed baby he did very well so and his weight gain is fine.

So he put himself on a four hourly schedule?

Yeah. I mean, yeah, again because of conflicting advice or different advice from different midwives some midwives were saying to me, 'Well you must wake him up to feed him after every four hours'. Some were saying, 'Well if he's asleep he's happy and content leave him asleep,' and in the end I resorted in doing a mix match again of both some days I'd wake him up after four hours to feed and then sometimes I just let him be.

She thinks that consistent advice and continuity of care would mean one less stressful burden for...

Is there anything you'd like to say to health professionals?

Consistent advice would be great, I know it's hard but if everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet it would make a world of difference to a lot of mothers, that's what I feel. Having my midwife on holiday during my first pregnancy, disadvantage that I didn't get one person to look after me for my first ten days, advantage I saw five different midwives I think in that period of time, who gave me different techniques of breastfeeding, but the disadvantage was that I never got the same information each time, very confusing, there should be something out there to say I don't know [laughs] some leaflet that as a pharmacist in their store could keep or would be given out in the Bounty packs consistency of advice that's so important because it is confusing as it is being a new mum. I mean breastfeeding is probably just one of the parts there's everything else to do. I remember when my first baby was born just looking at him and thinking, 'It's been about ten hours, I should change his nappy now, I haven't got a clue how to?' And just carried on looking at him and waited till the midwife came around and said, 'Could you give me a hand? What should I do? Should I get water? Should I use wipes?' I never even thought about those things before baby was born, it was just one thing you just thought you got on with and did but I was just terrified of doing my first nappy, so there are a hundred and one things going round, if the advice about breastfeeding was the same from everybody it'd make it'd be one less burden or one less stressful thing you wouldn't have to think about, that would be the best thing.

As a pharmacist her training focused on infant formula but all knowledge "went out of the window"...

Does being a pharmacist, has being a pharmacist made any difference to breastfeeding?

No.

Did you learn anything about breastfeeding in your pharmacy training?

I learnt the basic as in it's best for baby, that's the advice that should be given. I remember learning more about formula milks as a pharmacist a whole training package, which milk when kind of thing but being a pharmacist went out of the window when I gave birth. It meant nothing, I don't think I trusted my instincts as being a pharmacist for the first for my first child I remember ringing colleague pharmacists one who's which is a best friend of mine just double confirming, 'I can give Calpol, can't I?' just wanting the reassurance what I was doing was okay second time round I have to say I am a lot more confident I know things are ok I'm not so hesitant about doing anything as much as I was first time round but being a pharmacist went out of the window [laughs] it didn't mean anything.

Her cracked and bleeding nipples were so painful that she dreaded feeding her baby. She got a lot...

No I was I came home I stayed only a night at the hospital and came home on the fourth day it was terrible my nipples were cracked bleeding very upset hormones obviously had kicked in as well and I remember walking out of the shower in floods of tears, husband walking in saying, 'What's wrong?' and it was a pure fear of baby waking up having to feed baby 'cause it hurt so much and I never ever thought that breastfeeding would be like that, none of my friends had said it, my sister-in-law hadn't mentioned it and but when I spoke to them about it during this really problematic period it was like, 'Well yes breastfeeding does hurt,' it was like, 'we didn't talk to you about it before 'cause you weren't going through it, there was no need to discuss it with you because you couldn't give us any of your experience so we talked to people who had already breastfed so that's why and you didn't know about it', and it was a shock a real shock.

Do you have any sense of why that happened?

As in the pain?

Why you ended up with sore nipples, were they cracked, your nipples? Do you know why?

Yeah the midwife just said, 'It's just one of those things 'cause the midwife in this area visits everyday for the first ten days unfortunately I didn't see the same midwife very frequently because she, because my midwife was actually on holiday so I was seeing relief staff which was good in one way because I got the opinions of lots of different midwives of what I should be doing, all of them checked my technique because they said it was most likely your technique that's not correct. 

Okay. So then you came home and carried on for a couple of days, things seemed fine?

Yes, things were fine until the fourth day which is when things became very painful I started to ask friends who were coming over, 'Am I doing this correctly?' Asked the midwife, 'Am I doing this correctly?' lots of advice and different ways of holding baby, but nothing really worked it was very, very painful to the point where every time I wanted to feed I'd ask my husband to come in to hold my hand while the first few sucks because they were the worst get the first few sucks out of the way get the first few tears out of the way and then he could go, once he was latched on and started drinking it was okay but that lasted for a for a good two weeks, it was awful.

And you tried lots of different positions?

Yeah I think every single position, the best one that worked for me in the end was lying down and I think that was more for the fact of one of my cousins coming over saying, 'You'll be relaxed it's a lot easier', and also we've got a wrought iron bed so I could hold on to something [laughs] for the first few sucks I think that was why I enjoyed that position the most and it also meant that I could go upstairs and say, 'I want to lie down and feed and not get upset or embarrassed in front of anybody else' but resulted in my best position which I then carried on for a good month or month and a half.

Did you do anything else for those nipples?

I bought several creams ones that I would have recommended to other people they were fine but I don't think they really helped that much but the belief I bought creams I bought nipple protectors.

Do you mean nipple shields?

Nipple shields yes. 

Mmm.

I just couldn't get the hang of using them and by the time you

Her mother-in-law was supportive even though she had not breastfed herself. She talked about the...

I mean my mother-in-law hadn't breastfed either of her children purely for the culture I mean both children were born here but in the environment she was in and the culture at the time it was like well bottle is easier I mean this is a good thirty years ago and breastfeeding wasn't so hot a topic as it is now and for her right from the beginning she was, 'Well don't worry' and there was a lot of support there but no nobody said to me, 'But you're a failure or' [laughs] or used those such words, it was just myself.

This notion of expressing so that your husband could give the baby a bottle, where did that come from?

Just from, just I think it was just a personal choice knowing it was available to do and the personal choice that it'd be contact time for my husband or for mother-in-law or father-in-law to have that time with baby just to keep breastfeeding longer, more than anything else, not that we didn't have a huge social life as such beforehand but it gave you a bit of a break, of knowing that yes I can go out and have dinner and watch a film or go out for a whole evening to somebody else's house and not have to go upstairs to breastfeed and miss out on what everything is going on downstairs, knowing that you had the opportunity to take a bottle with you but it was still breastmilk.

So if you had gone out in the evening to friends and taken the baby'

Yeah.

'you would have had to go to another room to feed?

Yeah.

Why?

I wouldn't have felt comfortable breastfeeding in front of other males except for my husband in our country culture it wouldn't be deemed acceptable, not at all and I wouldn't feel comfortable breastfeeding in front of say my brother or close male friends that I have or my father.

Even in your own home?

Yes.

You won't breastfeed in front of your father?

No.

Or close male relatives?

No.

So you go out of the room?

Or they go out of the room. We have separate lounges anyway so it was never a huge issue at home I mean I have my brother-in-law who lives here as well and as soon as it would be time for breastfeed I'd either go nip into the other room or they would say, 'Do you want us to go?' so it wasn't, it wasn't an issue but there was no way I was going to breastfeed I didn't feel comfortable breastfeeding in front of other males.

But in front of women relatives it was fine?

Yeah, that was fine yeah totally fine, yeah. 

During breastfeeding, whether it's traditional it's not quite the right word we have a very strict diet during breastfeeding it might be what you'd say an acquired taste [laughs] first few days it's very, very, very bland foods.

Such as?

Oh actually the first five days it was just a mixture of finely ground nuts made in milk, a spoonful of that in milk and that was the diet for the first five days nothing else.

Why do you think this is, what's the reasoning behind that?

It depends who you speak to, I think the only reason that I can go with would be something simple, I thin

Both of her babies became fussy at about three months of age which she thinks is because she didn...

After about three months, I remember it was, it was Christmas Day, Boxing Day I felt my milk supply was going.

Why, what made you think that?

Because he was on, actually it was about a week or so before, as he was about three months old and I used to express every evening a bottle for him.

Why?

So that my husband could feed baby or if we wanted to go out my mother-in-law, father-in-law could feed baby and look after baby so every night I'd express a bottle for the next night which gave me a bit of space and I remember one night and I was struggling to express two ounces whereas previously I'd be able to express six or seven ounces and that to my mind I thought, 'Ok something's not quite right' contacted the health visitor and they were like saying, 'Oh well it's just probably the baby is feeding a lot more during the day and you've not got as much milk during the night, but carry on and your milk supply will come back' I remember persevering for about three weeks and I couldn't express more than, it was a struggle to express more than two ounces at a time and I remember over the Christmas period because I remember it being the four days bank holiday and not having anyone really to speak to Shivam was on my breast every hour nearly and he was gnawing at the breast as such because he, you knew he wasn't getting enough I remember digging out all my leaflets that I'd got from the hospital and my own personal leaflets, getting all the telephone numbers out and ringing people and everyone saying to me, 'Just carry on as normal, it's fine your milk supply will come back' I think I persevered for another four weeks after that and nothing changed and then eventually I bought formula.

Do you have any sense of why that happened?

No.

How did you explain that to yourself? How do you explain it now?

I was distraught I, well at first I thought, that baby didn't want to be fed but then from speaking to other people 'cause he was actually pulling at the breast and gnawing at the breast it was as if, well no he does actually want to be fed I felt like a failure it was horrible 'cause he was just about four weeks, four months stage when I bought my first packet of formula milk for him and all my friends around me had breastfed for so much longer and I thought I really wanted to breastfeed longer and there is nothing. I'd not planned to go back to work for a long time I was going to take the full twelve months maternity, there is no reason for me to stop breastfeeding but it felt as if I had to so I was I was very upset and buying that first packet of formula and giving that first bottle was horrible, I didn't enjoy it at all but he took it fine and he was very happy which kind of made me feel better and the stress went as well but at least he's fed but I wasn't happy about it.

Where do you think that feeling of feeling a failure came from?

As soon as you fall pregnant you start getting leaflets about breastfeeding that it's the best thing you can do for your child and not doing it felt to me not doing breastfeeding was becoming a failure and knowing that friends around me had breastfed for longer it meant that I wasn't reaching the benchmark of what everybody else had done I mean that's what hurt, but it's everywhere as soon as you go into hospital there's leaflets and posters up about breastfeeding and, 'breast is best' everywhere so if you don't do it you are deemed as a failure, that's what I thought anyway.

Did that come from yourself no d

As a health professional, she was aware of the advice about co-sleeping but decided to sleep with...

What about at night? What arrangements did you have for the night-time?

Again some midwives said to me and the health visitors said to me to wake him up during the night to feed which I did for about and I was setting because he slept through and wasn't bothered, I mean he'd go from a very young age from about eight / nine o'clock in the evening to eight / nine o'clock in the morning so the full twelve hours he'd discovered his thumb, so which was fantastic at the time for me so I'd have to set my alarm for every four hours to wake up throughout the night to feed him and then my mother-in-law, my mum and lots of friends and family were saying, 'Oh you're stupid just let him sleep, if he's happy and content let him be' and I did that in the end.

You were so lucky to get a full night's sleep.

I know, I know, I was very lucky.

And did you have him in your room, in your bed?

Well we had a cot in our room but some nights I had him in my bed it was it was so much easier breastfeeding and letting him sleep with us and he settled so much quicker rather than getting him out of bed putting him into the cot and waking up again but he would sleep through either way.

How did you reconcile what you would have known as a health professional with sleeping with your baby in your bed and actually doing it?

As a health professional obviously it's a big no, you don't really recommend it, and at first it was, 'No baby can't go in bed with us' I had a Moses basket to start off with in the room and then bought a bigger cot but eventually, I suppose looking for information on the internet there's lot of information about some, because we are a western country as such, it's not condoned to be ok but everywhere else around the world babies do sleep with their mothers and that gave me the satisfaction in saying, 'Yes it's ok' and that's why I did it. Even though my own mum, even though she was brought up in India but she had her children in this country, babies always went in the cot she never slept with either of us but knowing other friends and families who've come from India it's like, 'Well no babies sleep with mummy it's easier it's safer' and it was a totally different advice than you'd get here, which made me do it.

Yeah.

And then I was speaking to health professionals living in this country who do it as well, so it was like ok I'll do it as well.

Did you have the same sleeping arrangements for you and the baby second time round? Or did you just have the baby in the bed with you since you were the only one there?

Yeah, I, for the first three or four weeks baby was just with me, it was because he was crying a lot because of his colic or wind I'm not quite sure which one it was, he just settled so much quicker in bed with me and it was just easier so yeah, it wasn't an issue. The Moses basket went to waste [laughs] he didn't sleep in it at all.

With only a fourteen month gap, her older child was very distressed by the arrival of his baby...

You spoke of the older child having problems with the younger baby, can you tell me what that was, describe it for me?

It all started, I stayed one night in hospital but the well no two nights second time round and, he arrived and on the Tuesday night, and I asked my husband to bring Shivam our older baby in on the Wednesday, so 'cause I knew we'd have lots of friends and family around afterwards, I wanted just to be us four and just enjoy that moment an, up until that point apparently Shivam had been quite happy at home without me not missing me at all, my husband brought him in, and I think it actually hit him that mummy hadn't been about when he actually saw me in the hospital bed and bless him he became really quiet, just came and laid in bed with me for about ten minutes, he didn't say a word, sucked his thumb then he seemed ok, showed him new baby, got him to hold new baby and all those nice little things, and we got some fantastic snaps out of if, and then the next day I came home, my mother-in-law went to pick Shivam up from nursery and she was, she went and picked him up and he was sitting in a corner by himself crying and, for a child who's never, he never cried, even as a baby, he just wasn't, he was very content very happy and she was, it broke her heart she said she saw him in the corner and you could tell he was thinking, and he was there crying and he came over to her and she was just, I've never seen him like that, and he must, it must have hit him that something had changed, a) that mummy wasn't there, he saw mummy yesterday with a diff, another baby and he was only fourteen months old as well you don't think they have that much understanding but he certainly did, came home and at first he was really excited because there's lots of balloons about and he was going wow, wow looking at everything and I think baby was asleep at this point really happy to see mum and then baby woke up, this was the first day we were home and he didn't want any of us to pick him up he was crying absolutely distraught, why is his grand-dad looking at him picking him up, why is mummy picking him up, why is mummy disappearing for an hour and a half at a time don't understand very upset very distraught it was very hard for the first ten days he took it very hard.

What could you do to ease it for him?

What we tried doing was at first I'd have Shivam sitting next to me whilst I was breastfeeding but then he'd want to sit with me and wouldn't let baby feed and then would end up crying and then baby would cry as well so that became distressing for me and I didn't feel as if I could give my all to breastfeeding baby at that point either and I'd find at that point actually I was clock watching I'd be thinking, 'I need to get this over and done with' and it was horrible because I knew my other baby Shivam 'cause at fourteen months he's still a baby, to me he is he was crying downstairs and it was very distressing but the easiest option then for us was that I would go into a separate room where he couldn't see me feed, and couldn't see me holding baby and somebody else could play and give him attention and then, as soon as I'd finished breastfeeding, I'd hand baby over to somebody else either grandma or husband or grand-dad and then I would look after Shivam and give him his attention and his time and I think that kind of worked eventually.

Did you feel incredibly stretched?

Yes I remember one particular evening when I thought of, I thought he was over it, and the reason why he seemed better was that I eventually started breastfeeding in the same room. Once he'd calmed down and was happy, I would breastfeed in the same room, I wouldn't disappear and he was ok and then we had some friends and family ov