John - Interview 15

Age at interview: 67

Brief Outline: John feels that a good night's sleep for him would be about 7 hours, and the amount of sleep he gets is important to him, even if it is interrupted. Currently John feels he only gets about 5 to 6 hours sleep and would like to get more, but would not seek help from his doctor until he felt lack of sleep impacted on whether he could drive safely. John tries to avoid sleeping during the day because he feels it will impact on how well he sleeps at night.

Background: Married, 4 children, part-time Test Centre Administrator

More about me...

John is married and has four children, who have all left home. John currently works part-time as a driving test-centre administrator.

John’s disturbed nights go back, he believes, to when he had to have heart surgery some 15 years ago. Since then he has found he doesn’t get as much sleep at night as he used to. Although John is a little concerned about how little he sleeps, he doesn’t feel this causes him too many problems and would only seek professional help if it interfered with his driving.

 

If John did have a particularly bad night, he may get up and come downstairs and watch the television or read a book, but would try very hard not to sleep during the next day so that he ensures a good night the following evening.

 

One strategy John uses to help him sleep is to count sheep, or memorise a series of words which he sometimes finds helps him fall asleep. He does, however, find it often takes him half an hour or more to fall asleep most nights.

John tried drinking a milky drink to help him get to sleep, but found that he then had to get up to go to the toilet.

Really, what causes that do you know?

 

I have no idea. I've tried reading books. I used to go out for walks, but people were attacked in the church yard a couple of times and I think may be…

 

Really.

 

Oh yes, we have had two women attacked in the church yard and that is early evening. And there are a few yobs about so I thought well, I don’t know. In the summer may be, I don’t mind when it is daylight, but not this time of the year. So I have got one of these things you jump up and down. I do stretching and stuff. I have tried Horlicks but the trouble with Horlicks is the liquid in my body tends to want to come out. So I try and cut down on drinking after six. And the Horlicks you have got to have before you go to bed. So it is a two way thing. I do sleep better with Horlicks but then I wake up wanting to go to the loo. So I would say my average sleep is between five and a half and six hours a night.

 

And would you that say that five and a half or six is pretty unbroken. Or are you disturbed in the night?

 

I occasionally go to the loo. Occasionally.

 

Okay and can you get back to sleep straight away?

 

A quarter of hour, twenty minutes usually. I would say if people looked for seven hours a night I am nowhere near it. My seven hours is as I say about once or may be twice a month.

 

 

 

 

John found that being on holiday made him feel more relaxed and helped with his poor sleep.

I was just thinking then in terms of if you were away or if you were on your own whether you would change what you do or whether your sleep changes. Say if you go away on holiday…?

 

Funny you should say that. I was about to say we went to Florence, was it Florence.. we have been to France a few times. Paris or Euro Disney. Now I slept better – now in the summer they have these black out curtains and there is no noise at all. It was absolutely weird, it was Florence you couldn’t hear a thing. A bit of traffic. Jets you can here very, very, in the background. But I slept right through until seven. Because when you get back, I mean there is not a lot to do late at night in a place like Florence. I mean you can go to a restaurant, you come home, walk around and then you get back about half past ten. Go to bed and I am, I am away, eleven o’clock, seven. It's amazing that sleep when I am away. Someone said something about the bed, ought to be north/south, I said north/south? Yes, it is the magnetic, something to do with the magnetic pole, I did actually once have the bed that way, it didn’t seem to make any difference, I don’t whether it is a factor but unfortunately we can’t do that in our bedroom, because we would be lopsided. It has got to go the way it goes. It just wouldn’t make any sense to have it any other way. But that isn’t north/south, it's west/east. So…

 

Did you sleep well in Florence the first night, or right from the first night?

 

Oh yes more or less every… well not as good as that but mostly at least seven hours.

 

Right.

 

And other places I have been where it has been a different environment, totally different environment, don’t ask me why. Maybe because we did a lot of walking around, maybe that was a factor I don’t know. Maybe because you are on holiday you unwind, you have got a different attitude you can disappear, any problems you have got you leave behind. You do, you tend to walk away into a totally different environment. Maybe that's a factor.

 

Its difficult isn’t it because you just don’t know what changes, but I think it’s interesting a lot of people do report their sleep either gets a lot of people do report their sleep, either gets a lot worse or a lot better?

 

I have never had worse sleep on holiday apart from the last night when you have to get up early in the morning to get the flight but the first night you sleep well because you have had a long day. I think that is natural. But I find my sleep patterns out of this country have been generally quite good.

 

Right.

 

We have been in the States. We have been in Europe. 

John would rather not sleep during the evening as it might interfere with his sleep at night.

I mean it doesn’t seem to make much difference to sleep, but they say a bit of exercise is not a bad idea. I read. Occasionally, occasionally I fall asleep, which is not a good thing. Even for a half an hour at half past seven in the evening is not going to help you sleep at night. So I try not to do that, but it just occasionally happens, it may be because I am tired, so it is a vicious circle isn’t it.

 

Yes, yes, it is. So you fall asleep sometimes?

 

Only occasionally but again once or twice a month I might doze off.

 

Okay what sort of time of day would that be?

 

Oh it is usually evening. When I am watching the football or something or tennis or something, I just …

 

And you don’t sleep during the day?

 

No. I generally can’t do that. The daylight, I don’t sleep during the day.

 

I mean if I did, it would be almost impossible to go to sleep. I know. I used to do nights at [Airport] many, many years ago. Oh that is going back thirty years now. If I went to sleep, it totally messes you up. I wouldn't want to do that ever again. Even though I got to sleep at night sometimes, it just wasn’t the same.

 

If John has a bad night he tries to keep going all day, despite feeling a big jet-lagged, otherwise he feels a nap might affect how he sleeps at night.

If you have a really, really bad night’s sleep, how do you feel in the morning?

 

Well yes, I occasionally go virtually through the night, that is very occasional. About three or four times a year I will and I feel like jet lagged you know, but a cold shower and then… but I know then I will sleep well the next night.

 

So would you make any changes to what you do during the day or do you adjust what you do at night?

 

No, with a bit of luck I don’t have any long journeys during the day, but no I’ll just try and act normally. But I am aware there is that sort of feeling about you when you haven’t. Although by early afternoon I am fairly alert, then in the evening if I am not careful I fall asleep.

 

Yes.

 

So I bring the alarm down, if I am watching something I set the alarm for a quarter of an hour and funnily enough knowing that is set I don’t fall asleep, but if I didn’t, I would. And, you know, because there is nothing worse than enjoying something and the commercial break comes on and you are off and when you wake up the whole thing is finished, so I occasionally put a …

 

So you wouldn’t try to have a nap during the day if you had a bad night?

 

I think that wouldn’t help. I don’t know. I think I would be better off just going through the day. Fighting my way through the day, and go to bed and get some sleep. 

John isn't sure whether he is waking up because he wants to go to the toilet, but wonders whether the water tablet he is taking may be the cause.

…it is not a big feature snoring. Although I do occasionally it is not a big feature. So that is something.

 

And you don’t stop breathing or anything?

 

Oh I am not aware I do, because I wake up and just want to go to the loo. I get a bit of a tingle and think oh God here we go.

 

Yes, because sometimes it’s difficult to tell, so wanting to go to the loo is what wakes you up, rather than you waking up and then realising you want to go to the loo?

 

I don’t know. I don’t know the answer to that. Invariably when I do wake up it is because I want to go to the loo. But whether that is waking me up or it is just by chance. I tend to think there is something telling me that I want to go to the loo. But I take a water tablet every morning, because of water retention. Now it should only last four or five hours. I am wondering if the residue carries on longer. I don’t know. He assured me it’s a mild dose and it shouldn’t last more than four hours.

 

So it shouldn’t be taking you into the night?

 

Well it shouldn’t no. Because I take it first thing in the morning, so by lunch time I should okay.

 

It should be out of your system. How long have you been on that?

 

Oh about a year. yes. So I have just been before you came so I am going to sit here without discomfort for two hours.

 

So how many times in the night do you think you get up to go to the…?

 

It is only ever once.

 

Only once?

 

That is about three times a week.

 

Yes, because that was one of the questions on the, that questionnaire that you filled in. a lot of people are saying you know, three or four times a night?

 

Oh Gosh if that is that bad then they ought to go to the doctors. You talk about prostate cancer if you do that. Gosh.

 

I think people accept it as part of the aging process. It is acceptable?

 

The doctors says if it is more than once a night you need to be looking at maybe why, but four times a night you are definitely possibly in trouble. Yes. yes, I mean it is a feature. I have been checked out so …I think I am okay on that score.

John noticed a change in his sleep pattern at the time of his heart surgery 15 years ago, and this has continued.

You have talked about your sleep changing as you have got older. Can you think back to what point you noticed it to change to start to deteriorate?

 

I suppose about yes, I think after my heart surgery funnily enough. That was one of the points…

 

You were sleeping okay up until that point?

 

Strangely, yes. You would have thought with a heart problem I wouldn't, I think I was. Yes, I mean to the best of my knowledge and my memory, I think I was having a regular seven hours. And it is in the last fifteen years, twelve, fifteen years that things have deteriorated a bit. I say deteriorated. I don’t feel any particularly bad, you know, this is what, if I felt really wretched I would go to the doctors but I do know I get less sleep. My friends they seem to get a bit more sleep then I do. And they are all about my age. 

John was told by his doctor to expect his sleep to worsen as he got older, but not to worry unless it got really bad.

Well the doctor, it didn’t seem to bother him. That I was having say six hours. He said your body will tell you whatever it needs. If you are in reasonable health, unless there is something very, very dark happening in your life, which you have chosen not to tell me about. I said no. No. He said you haven’t got any serious problem have you. No I said my life is coming along all right. He said well there is no serious illness with you. Your brain function is okay. Your aptitude tests, when you have done them, you say have been good. Physically in reasonable health. You are not too over weight. You know, you are the sort of patient that I expect to see at the age late sixties, and the expectation is that you will live into your eighties. So don’t worry about the sleep. Only come and see me if it really starts to impede on your physical well being. If it really drags you down. And you become psychotic about it, you will then need to come and see me. But he said yes, ideally you should get a bit more sleep, but just let it happen. You know, you really don’t need me to give you stuff to shove in your system. I don't want to do that.

 

 

And he said I don’t want to chemically send you to sleep. I don’t think that's a good idea, that is the last resort. He said you can become over dependent and that isn’t a good a thing, he said. You will find you need less sleep as you get older.

 

The doctor said that?

 

Yes. He said ‘in your sixties, and when you get into seventies you find you will be able to cope, providing you sit back and accept it’. He said ‘but don’t get too concerned. If you have night after night without proper sleep that is one thing. If you have the occasional bad [night] don’t be concerned. The body will look after your sleep needs’.